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Resurrected: Tyrant's LSM Launch


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#1 coastercrazy10

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 03:08 PM

Hey all,

Been working on this for a while now and the time has come to start releasing details. Before any questions are asked about it, yes I'm using this for Mr. Freeze. I intend to publicize all of my findings and compile them all into a freely distributed PDF under my name. That being said, I claim all intellectual property herein as my own unless otherwise attributed.

I claim copyright of my material under the same license we claim copyright for tutorials here. This may not be copied, published, or sold without my express written permission.

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With that out of the way, lets get down to the nitty gritty.

We all know the genius that Tyrant is, and though his LSM launch was ultimately no more than an experiment, nobody else has put the time into debugging and improving his setup, so this is going to be what Tyrant wanted his launch to be. Here is a link to his thread from some time ago.

There were several flaws in Tyrant's early design which were not addressed in his redesigns. Here is the only remaining publicized circuit diagram from his project:
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The first problem is a critical flaw and contributes to his reed switches burning out - no circuit isolation. All of the current is pushed through the reed switches which are only designed to handle signal currents (well under 1A), and I can guarantee that with 10 electromagnets more than 1A was pushed through those switches as they activated. They fried, unsurprisingly.

The second problem is a compound issue relating to current management. According to this schematic, all 10 electromagnets were activated at once, which draws a lot of current. To find out approximately how much current one unrestricted electromagnet would pull, read a bit further. Suffice it to say that he was pulling hundreds of amps at a time, which is extremely dangerous and is the reason why he blew up so many power supplies.

Unfortunately, I was unable to salvage much from Matt's project as it was riddled with issues. I also want to take the time to explain LSM vs. LIM a little bit here, as the explanations in the thread are a bit confusing:
LIM (Linear Inductance Motor) - The train is effectively encased in a large coil, and some non-conductive material experiences Eddy currents, which is effectively an induced current that, by virtue of alternating current, propels the car down the track. For real life comparisons of this technology, see Mr. Freeze, Joker's Jinx, etc. All LIM launches are enclosed and sort of act as a magnetic gun.
LSM (Linear Synchronous Motor) - The train contains a rare earth magnet which reacts to smaller electromagnets and propels the train forward. This technology is a bit more straightforward and is more suited for this project. For real life comparisons of this technology, see Superman Escape from Krypton.

So the question remains: How do we launch a K'Nex roller coaster with magnets?

Well, that's what I aim to show. Some primary considerations, such as components and preliminary calculations have been made to make this job more digestible. Here are the components I intend to use (an incomplete list):

Arduino Mega
300W Power Supply
IRFP250N FETs
Octocouplers (P/N TBD)
5/8" Diameter Cast Iron Rods
20 AWG magnet wire

An octocoupler is a totally isolated transistor that uses an LED as its activator instead of a current, which will protect the Arduino in case of a FET failure (we don't want high currents getting back to the board, as it would fry).

Each electromagnet will be four inches long. I have done some calculations to determine how much current said electromagnet will pull if left to its own devices, simply due to the resistance in the wire:
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As you can see, this is nearly 60 amps. If we assume Matt's electromagnets pulled a similar amount of current, then his launch would pull upwards of 600A during launch, which explains why the power supplies fried. My 300W power supply is rated at 15A on the 12V line. A power supply will cycle power to itself if this limit is exceeded, but only to a certain extent. If it is exceeded substantially, the PSU will fail without question.

So how do we create a stable power source? We can't have the thing powering itself on and off during launch, and 60A is significantly higher than 15A. To do this, we will implement what's called a duty cycle (I will use 1/5 or 1/6 on my Mr. Freeze recreation, details of that to come after testing).

A duty cycle is a way to limit the amount of current drawn from a power source. A 12V line rated at 15A can only supply 15A continuously, but can supply more instantaneously. So, by turning on the power supply for 1 "unit" of time, then leaving it off for 3, and then repeating that pattern, we can create a 1/4 duty cycle (i.e. power drawn for 1/4 of the time, so only 1/4 the current is pulled when the time unit become small enough). This allows us to pull 15A instead of 60 and not burn out the PSU or cause it to switch off!

This is where the octocouplers come in. The large FET described above requires higher currents than an Arduino can signal with in order to fully saturate, which means to allow the maximum allowed current through the FET. By activating the octocouplers in a 1/4 duty cycle, the large FET will be active in the same way, which will only draw 15 amps. This is a bit too close to the max of the PSU so that's why I will use a 1/5 or 1/6 duty cycle, but this was only to show simple calculations. Also note I will be activating one magnet at a time and switching direction, but at no point will the magnet system draw more than 15 A (in the case of a 1/4 duty cycle) + the current needed for the FET and octocoupler.

I am working on determining the proper octocoupler to use, as well as gathering parts and calculating the force an electromagnet the size I'm building can exert so I can get an approximation of how quickly I'll be able to get this train moving. More detail on the calculations and parts to come, I just wanted to document my findings thus far.

If you guys have any questions, ask away!

-Ben

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#2 SuperTKDKid

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 03:10 PM

WHAT WHAT WHAT?!?!?!?!?!? Holy Shiz.... I just shat myself and I have not even read your entire post.....

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#3 RNB

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 03:25 PM

Ok, and now in english, instead of in a language aliens speak? (lol, no idea what this is, I only know it's a launch)


#4 Knexrule11

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 03:27 PM

I can't wait to see more progress on this. I love reading through Tyrants old thread. And it seems like your figured out all of his mistakes, so I hope you can get this to work.

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#5 Antinos

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 03:44 PM

Basically, he's applying hardcore electrical engineering to a LSM launch. All I have to say is good luck.

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#6 Maxlaam

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 03:58 PM

Lovely, more people joining in the "Tracing Tyrant's Footsteps" club :)

The mistakes he made are actually incredibly easy to figure out. I wonder why he never thought of that? 60A is a lot and 15A will most certainly kill you too if you touch a live wire. How was he thinking about working with 600A currents?

I wonder if you can pull it off, a very complex project I wouldn't dare to try to make.


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#7 SuperTKDKid

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 04:06 PM

Where DID Tyrant go?

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#8 Maxlaam

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 04:19 PM

He got to work for Premier Rides but found out that he didn't like the work at all. Then he lost interest in model coasters all together and started doing rally racing.


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#9 ickus305

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 05:00 PM

This is a DEATH TRAP!!!!!

60amps is asking for trouble all the way around. As Max said 15amps will kill you. Also you are looking to launch a light weight small object, 1 amp max is all you need.

I spoke with a Master Electrician, because I was highly concerned about where this is leading.

Try using using a a 12 volt 1amp wallpack. Use a set of reed switches to trigger a relay, the relay powers a solenoid coil. With a piece of metal under the train should be good to go. (as you trigger a relay that will power the coil, the coil will pull the train forward, then you want turn off that relay before you get to close (because you will brake if you go to far) and turn on the next coil and so on and so fourth, as you pick up speed the placement off things will need to be adjusted and such. Each coil would require about .25 amps which is MUCH SAFER, less likely to kill you from electricity or some else in the next room when plastic and metal shreds come flying at them.

Also, you could safely use your aurdino with it.



I feel that what you have done was done with good intentions, but the numbers your trying to produce can seriously get you or someone else fatally injured. and sometimes LESS is MORE

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#10 SuperTKDKid

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 05:15 PM

He got to work for Premier Rides but found out that he didn't like the work at all. Then he lost interest in model coasters all together and started doing rally racing.


Yeah, if I worked for a Coaster Company I would go to a wooden one. Has he come back since?

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#11 commando

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 05:31 PM

This with definitely be something to watch. I dont know a whole lot about electrical engineering but I think I understand how this will work. So if you are using this on a Mr. Freeze recreation will you be using a LSMs on the launch and for the spike on the spire?

And be very careful around that kind of power man. If you arent't you will get fried


#12 pkiknex25

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 10:52 PM

I call his Knex if something happens!!!

Have you even worked on the calculations to find the amount of force needed to propel the train? That would be the place where I would start to make this real.

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#13 Tyrant

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 11:44 PM

All the flaws that you found in my experiment are 100% correct. I was pretty stupid back then, that was my senior year of HS almost 7 years ago and hardly had any real, REAL knowledge of electronics and glad that no one has tried doing what I did. Some of the later versions I ended up doing did use some attempts at FETs and relays, but I never had a control scheme that worked well enough to keep up with the switching speeds needed. Now having completed my MechE degree, and taken some higher level courses on Control systems and electronics, I think that I could tackle it again... but like it was already mentioned, my enthusiasm isn't what it used to be...

Its been a long time since I thought about it, but one method I was bouncing around in my head a while ago was using individual capacitors for each electromagnet. Discharge it, then a slow bleed charge back into the capacitors for the next "launch". But ultimately you are going to need some very very fast acting sensors and a control scheme with an active feedback loop. Also, the power levels are definitely very dangerous, but that is just par for the course when it comes to electromagnets. The real rides draw a TREMENDOUS amount of power during launches. Mr Freeze at Six Flags St. Louis had to be put on its own power grid separate from the park because during launches the lights would dim across the park.

As for what I have been doing... like it was mentioned, I worked for Premier Rides for a year on a co-op and found coaster design not to be what I thought it would be, and it got rather boring quickly. Around that time I started getting into cars, and into rally car racing. Flash forward 4 years, and I am now working for Boeing on the F-15 program for my career, own three cars which include a 350hp swapped Subaru and a 1994 Subaru Legacy rally car that I am racing in Regional and National level events. I fly around the country to several rallies every year as a co-driver, and will be towing the car soon as a driver. The thrill of rally racing has drowned any thrill I've ever gotten on a roller coaster. Going 120mph over blind crests at night on narrow forest roads in a fully caged race car, sliding sideways while at full throttle narrowing missing near-death on a cliff edge... those are the kind of moments that have made coasters seem like child's play to me. :)

I'll be sure to try and check in every once in a while... seems I pop in every 6 months or so. Let me know about the progress on this. I am still waiting to see someone do what I set out. I know its possible... its just very tough. :)

Good luck to you!

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#14 coastercrazy10

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 08:37 PM

I can't wait to see more progress on this. I love reading through Tyrants old thread. And it seems like your figured out all of his mistakes, so I hope you can get this to work.

As far as I can tell I've found all the flaws, at least fundamentally. The implementation will be somewhat different so a lot of this will be new engineering.

Basically, he's applying hardcore electrical engineering to a LSM launch. All I have to say is good luck.

Thanks Marc! Just want to eliminate anything that might cause problems!

Lovely, more people joining in the "Tracing Tyrant's Footsteps" club :)

The mistakes he made are actually incredibly easy to figure out. I wonder why he never thought of that? 60A is a lot and 15A will most certainly kill you too if you touch a live wire. How was he thinking about working with 600A currents?

I wonder if you can pull it off, a very complex project I wouldn't dare to try to make.

I think I'm innovating beyond Tyrant at this point, if I'm being totally honest. I have never seen anyone take such an engineering-based approach to anything on this website. And I will pull it off.

This is a DEATH TRAP!!!!!

60amps is asking for trouble all the way around. As Max said 15amps will kill you. Also you are looking to launch a light weight small object, 1 amp max is all you need.

I spoke with a Master Electrician, because I was highly concerned about where this is leading.

Try using using a a 12 volt 1amp wallpack. Use a set of reed switches to trigger a relay, the relay powers a solenoid coil. With a piece of metal under the train should be good to go. (as you trigger a relay that will power the coil, the coil will pull the train forward, then you want turn off that relay before you get to close (because you will brake if you go to far) and turn on the next coil and so on and so fourth, as you pick up speed the placement off things will need to be adjusted and such. Each coil would require about .25 amps which is MUCH SAFER, less likely to kill you from electricity or some else in the next room when plastic and metal shreds come flying at them.

Also, you could safely use your aurdino with it.



I feel that what you have done was done with good intentions, but the numbers your trying to produce can seriously get you or someone else fatally injured. and sometimes LESS is MORE

I understand your concern and rest assured I hear you, but I have weighed the risks and am more intimately aware of them as a result of these calculations. The reason I'm doing the math before I even touch a soldering iron to some wire is to be sure I know exactly what I'm doing, exactly what kind of power we're talking about, and so that I don't burn anything out. I have run everything by my dad, who has a B.S. in Electrical Engineering and though he has warned me in a similar fashion, he knows I will be careful. I want to use this for a full launch and I feel like I'm not going to get the power required by using dramatically less power.

This with definitely be something to watch. I dont know a whole lot about electrical engineering but I think I understand how this will work. So if you are using this on a Mr. Freeze recreation will you be using a LSMs on the launch and for the spike on the spire?

And be very careful around that kind of power man. If you arent't you will get fried

I will be, don't worry. I will be using it for both the launch and the spike propulsion, so no chain except in the station.

I call his Knex if something happens!!!

Have you even worked on the calculations to find the amount of force needed to propel the train? That would be the place where I would start to make this real.

I'm working with one of my friends who is way better in physics than I am, so hopefully he will be able to work out an approximate force so we can report approximate accelerations.

All the flaws that you found in my experiment are 100% correct. I was pretty stupid back then, that was my senior year of HS almost 7 years ago and hardly had any real, REAL knowledge of electronics and glad that no one has tried doing what I did. Some of the later versions I ended up doing did use some attempts at FETs and relays, but I never had a control scheme that worked well enough to keep up with the switching speeds needed. Now having completed my MechE degree, and taken some higher level courses on Control systems and electronics, I think that I could tackle it again... but like it was already mentioned, my enthusiasm isn't what it used to be...

Its been a long time since I thought about it, but one method I was bouncing around in my head a while ago was using individual capacitors for each electromagnet. Discharge it, then a slow bleed charge back into the capacitors for the next "launch". But ultimately you are going to need some very very fast acting sensors and a control scheme with an active feedback loop. Also, the power levels are definitely very dangerous, but that is just par for the course when it comes to electromagnets. The real rides draw a TREMENDOUS amount of power during launches. Mr Freeze at Six Flags St. Louis had to be put on its own power grid separate from the park because during launches the lights would dim across the park.

As for what I have been doing... like it was mentioned, I worked for Premier Rides for a year on a co-op and found coaster design not to be what I thought it would be, and it got rather boring quickly. Around that time I started getting into cars, and into rally car racing. Flash forward 4 years, and I am now working for Boeing on the F-15 program for my career, own three cars which include a 350hp swapped Subaru and a 1994 Subaru Legacy rally car that I am racing in Regional and National level events. I fly around the country to several rallies every year as a co-driver, and will be towing the car soon as a driver. The thrill of rally racing has drowned any thrill I've ever gotten on a roller coaster. Going 120mph over blind crests at night on narrow forest roads in a fully caged race car, sliding sideways while at full throttle narrowing missing near-death on a cliff edge... those are the kind of moments that have made coasters seem like child's play to me. :)

I'll be sure to try and check in every once in a while... seems I pop in every 6 months or so. Let me know about the progress on this. I am still waiting to see someone do what I set out. I know its possible... its just very tough. :)

Good luck to you!

Thank you Matt, I'm glad to see you back around. I am using FETs and the octocouplers because of how quickly they can be activated and deactivated, and relays are far to slow for something like this. For the straight launch I will devise a system to place the car in an exact spot every time to be sure the launch has the exact effect each time as well. I'll do my best to keep you up-to-date and I can email you details as they become available if you'd like. Just PM me an email address in that case.

Will be working on circuit diagrams soon so that will likely be the next update. Hopefully I can start buying materials and set up a single-magnet test soon!

-Ben

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#15 SuperTKDKid

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 09:39 PM

Are you going to do an enclosed station and launch like on the real ride?

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