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Automation: Mechanical vs. Electronic

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#1 Maxlaam

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:17 PM

Automation is something that has always pretty much always sparked peoples interest across the forums. Some things that spring to mind from the old times were the Intamin Shuttle coasters using elaborate contraptions to get the train to go back and forth. Or the never to be forgotten attempt by Tyrant to make a magnetic launch. But not until a few years ago there have been systems created by many members that take automation to a whole new level.

There have been very well made tutorials to make different mechanical timing systems, making it more accessible for people that want to attempt the complex mechanical timing systems and switches. Meanwhile there has also been a group that have decided to do it with something else than K'NEX; Lego NXT and custom systems.

But as more Electronic systems emerged more discussions about mechanical and electronic systems began to happen. Some of which had some very harsh statements made towards either of the two.

MMM is a contest where it's likely that mechanical and electronic systems have to battle against each other. Something that I always notice is how people bluntly say that one system is easier, better or more advanced than the other. Usually it's also the reason why one would pick a model (which in my opinion is something to take into consideration, but not before both tracks has been properly evaluated).

Is there really a better system? Is there a huge difference in difficulty between the two systems? What is your opinion on those systems?



I'll begin myself.

Personally I think we've reached a point where neither system is more difficult or better than the other. That being said, as one of the (if not the) first to make a fully automatic system via electronics I'm very much offended when electronics are being called-out for being easy or nowhere near as innovative as full mechanical automation. When I came up with the idea to make a electronic system I had to start from absolute scratch. I wanted to make a system where a button press would initiate a ride cycle and would keep track of what was going on. Much like how real roller-coasters work. A lot of planning and reading went into that, I've taught everything myself on the subject by reading a lot online and talking with other people with an interest in electronics. About components, calculations, scripting, etc. All the money I spent on it, all the mistakes I made during the build... Very little things are so dear to me as this system which I made entirely by myself, which has cost me loads of time to develop and to get it to work.

Soon after more systems spawned, the Arduino based systems became really popular for their price and how you could add or remove things you wanted. You could make them as complex as possible. The basics were all the same but the internals were far from similar. The ones who did build their own system shared a lot of knowledge on the subject. There are basic systems out there but also highly complex systems where one might wonder if it can still be considered a hobby.

That "massive" Arduino spawn ended about a year ago and ever since more comments rose in the favour of mechanical systems. Partially understandable, we put in all of our effort once and developed systems which are very much interchangeable between models. Though the effort once put in seems to just fade away over time in the eyes of others. No matter how freely interchangeable our systems may look there is still a lot of work that needs to be put in programming for every new model, no ride is identical.

I guess it's no more than reasonable to be very upset when you have laid out a foundation for others, then having your effort washed away by comments about electronic systems being too 'simple' or too 'easy'.

If that was really the case, then why aren't there more of those systems? Time has proven that those systems aren't in need of a huge investment. It's easily doable to build such a system for a 2 number figure. I wouldn't dare call such systems elitist any more because all the knowledge is out there already. The only thing that might hold some back is programming, which requires some effort to learn. That isn't really a bad thing to know a thing or two about anyway.

The knowledge for mechanical automation is also out there, simple mechanical automation has over the years also become more accessible to others. It's quite funny how both systems are actually very much the same. Mechanical automation relies on a lot of trial and error for timing and a lot of fine tuning. The same goes for electronic systems, instead of switching gears in and out of places we are touching keys on our keyboard to try and write a logical program that makes everything move the way we want it to move, not to mention a lot of variables need to be played around with to get it to work to your likings.

When it comes to complexity we are talking about a lot of similarities too. Over time you gain knowledge about the systems which allow you to make more advanced things. Mechanical systems start moving more things than just station gates or a drop floor. Where electronic systems start getting more complex by utilizing proper block sections to allow for more trains to run at the same time without colliding.

Both systems require a decent amount of knowledge, one of mechanical systems and the other of electronics and programming. Neither of this knowledge comes for free, for any system you are required to put time and effort into it. For this very reason I don't think that it can be justified to call one system more impressive than the other. Both very different techniques but still stupidly similar.


So what's you opinion on this?

Edited by Jogumpie, 08 April 2014 - 04:26 PM.
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#2 ThisIsGabe

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 08:42 PM

I'll bite :)

In my opinion (as a ride operator and future electrical engineer), electronic control systems are far superior to mechanical systems. You can do things with an arduino in a day or two that would take far longer to do with knex (if possible). If you want to get "realistic" in terms of control, I have yet to encounter a ride that used a mechanical control system. Everything from Cedar Creek to the kiddy rides to Top Thrill Dragster is PLC controlled (although smaller kiddy rides used an electronic timer).

However, I'm also aware that not all members here are in high school or older, and thus electronic projects like this may be a little out of their range. Remember, it's really easy to tear someone else's accomplishments down, especially through the internet.

It's pretty cool to see someone's mechanical creation, but I still think that an electronic control system is superior. Perhaps an easier way to get access to one will increase its popularity, it's fairly easy to get an arduino online, but a whole system adds complexity.

Still, I don't discount a model that uses mechanical controls. They're really neat! Just don't ask me to ride on a mechanically controlled coaster ;)

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#3 alpal

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:36 AM

Hey Maxlaam, first off, I would like to apologize for my recent comment in MMM, it may have been taken the wrong way. I had said that in my mind, mechanical systems are more impressive. I should've clarified. Knex mechanical automation is much more limited in what it can do, it can't do the same timed programming that electronics can do. That being said, if there were two automatic systems that did the same thing, I would, in general, be more impressed by the mechanical one. I am extremely impressed by electronic automation, don't get me wrong. I understand that a lot goes into it that I don't understand. The reason why I haven't gotten into programming is because I love the spatial mind challenge of designing mechanical systems and because I am cheap :P I agree that both methods are similar, we all use problem solving to get to our desired result. I think that the only difference is the capabilities.

For example, I tried automating Top Thrill Dragster back in '11, and the mechanics couldn't handle the torque from the launch. I am sure that if one used electronics, avoiding much of the mechanics that had me tied, one could automate the launch we had.

As with electronics, mechanical automation is growing in capability (albeit not as quickly).
I recently just automated the station for Josh Monster's Raptor. The system was similar to programming (I have done a little bit of programming), it was a 4 revolution cycle that had the different elements of the system timed to happen at various times. It had the standard station gates, the raising platform with front gate, a sweeping arm to push the cars out of the station, and an off switch. In order to do this, I used a standard 12v motor and a transmission style switch for consistency. This new design has given me more potential (consistency means less troubleshooting, and the 12v gives more power.) However, I just did what I had to do to make a more reliable system that did all that. If I want to make a system that does even more, I may have to learn how to use electronics.

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#4 Mister Piglette

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:56 PM

I think this is a very great discussion to have on this site. Obviously being age 13 and only understanding few subjects you guys bring up with electronics and mechanics, it is difficult to have an opinion on such a topic. I am working on station ideas and building them, as limited knowledge makes me want to discover the best ways to do things, like figuring out more efficient station gates (which I am currently trying to do). However, being in a class of Automation and Robotics only for half a semester has helped me with understanding these tough subjects.

Now back to the subject, mechanical or electronic?

Mechanical:
I love mechanical engineering as yes, it takes lots of trial and error to find the exact timing, especially when you have multiple motors running individual mechanics (station gates, floors, etc) or one motor running all those mechanics by itself using switches. I believe just the timing and figuring that out is the hardest thing for me to get correctly and I'm sure for everybody else, along with space used to contain all the gears, switches, and making it look resonable.

Electronic:
Electronics I wouldn't consider a "cheat" for building and automating what you'd need to automate, but it's almost something that takes massive researching and planning and unstanding to apply it into your build, and then with this knowledge, you then sort of make the automating a little easier. I have no experience with electronics so correct me if I'm wrong with anything, but it's just what I'm assuming. Programming is hard and I do understand that.

But what do I think? Like Alpal, I think that mechanical engineering and mechanical-run coasters are better and more impressive. I love anything that automates and both do the job right, but there's just something that makes me like mechanical automation better. I like automation either way, and I think that automation will become more widespread throughout more and more of everyones coasters. I see KNex innovation between all of us is advancing and I can't wait until I'm older to see all the advances we as a group can make. I guess that is it for me and it is pretty late so my writing is a little off, but it should be good enough to prove my point.


#5 rollercoasterfanatic919

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 11:03 PM

I fully appreciate both methods of automation, and understand that both have their own unique challenges. If I personally were to go about creating an automation system for one of my models, I would probably choose the mechanical route. This is not just because I don't have a particularly strong knowledge of the technology required for electronic automation, however. My mind works in a very visual-spatial way, and I have no trouble imagining three-dimensional renderings, so to speak, in my head. I guess another way to put this is that I'm a geometry person, not algebra/calculus. More abstract ways of thinking about things are less natural for me, and so the skills required for electronic automation would be more difficult to master. Because of this, mechanical automation clicks better for me.

No one system is any better than the other, though. If electronic automation comes more naturally to you, or you simply enjoy it more, do it. Electronic automation probably makes more sense for real-world applications, as it can be much more reliable and more easily modified if something goes wrong.

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#6 DDRman732865

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 11:41 PM

If you're going for a completely refined, realistic coaster, then electronics are probably the way to go. They're more reliable, and they are easier to hide.

If you're going for automation for the sake of automation, whether it be station gates, running two or more trains, brake runs, etc. then whatever you have access to.

If it's a coaster based around the concept of automation (Jumpge's Afterburner, RWT's Round About / Steel Venom / Corkscrew), then I would most definitely want to see mechanical automation. I've come to the conclusion that electronic automation feels removed from the building process. If you can see the moving components, it makes the coaster even more impressive. It isn't about which is easier and which is harder, it's about aesthetic appeal. If it's something that has never been done before, then mechanical is more impressive by far (IMO). All electronic automation has something to go off of that existed previously. Many of these revolutionary mechanical automations were very original and innovative. These instances are rare, though. Most of the time, it really doesn't matter, as I've stated before. It's like boxes vs. tubes: both are completely context sensitive, both have their advantages and disadvantages, and both have people that only swear by them and claim it as far superior, etc.

Sorry if my post seems cynical, it's just that time of night.


#7 ~stεεlspectrum~

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 12:44 PM

Like DDRman, I make a distinction between two types of coasters.

There are coasters that add on automation as an "extra feature" to an already-impressive model. For these, it makes sense to use whatever system comes most naturally to you, whether electronic or mechanical. The automation is supposed to be hidden, with the focus on the coaster itself. As long as the automation works, it doesn't make a difference how you go about it.

Then there are coasters like Steel Venom and Afterburner, whose main focus of the ride is their automation. If they weren't automatic, the coaster wouldn't be very impressive at all. With the focus completely on the automation, it's much more important which system you use, because that defines the model. If a model like Steel Venom were automated with Arduino, I'd consider it more of an Arduino model than a K'Nex model. But since it's only got K'Nex parts, it is very much a K'Nex coaster in my mind.

The fact that a model is built completely out of K'Nex is a huge selling point (this is a K'Nex website after all). The Arduino coaster is no less impressive of a model; it's just built less out of K'Nex and more out of other materials. So when I'm choosing between two K'Nex models, I'm more likely to vote for the one mechanically automated with K'Nex.






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