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Coming (eventually): ThisIsGabe's LSM Launch

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#1 ThisIsGabe

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 11:26 AM

So, I've been messing around with K'nex for almost 10 years now, and I've always wanted a good launch system. Rubber bands are fun, but I want something a tad more realistic. I've also seen two (probably more) attempts at an LSM launch start and die out on this site already, so I figured I'd give it a shot. Why? Well, last summer I worked on a LSM roller coaster (and got to get an up close look at its systems while it was down), and I'm currently in college for my electrical engineering degree. This is not going to be a project that is finished in a month or two, however I hope to have it done by the end of 2014. I'll post major updates as they come.

So. How about those LSMs, eh?
They're an interesting method of generating motion from electricity. The basic concept is placing an electromagnet near two magnets, turning on the electromagnet, and having the magnets move towards the magnet. Repeat the process with more electromagnets, and eventually, your magnets are going really fast. Attach a roller coaster car to the magnets, and you have a ride like Maverick.

Previous Attempts

Now, this is where previous SSCoaster launches differ from reality. Because the web is constantly changing, it's hard to find photos of the first K'nex LSM launch, but the photos that I have found show a single magnet anchored to the bottom of the K'nex train, and moving over flat stators in the track. The stators are single phase, and controlled by reed switches and relays, then a computer and relays.
The control system initially was a magnet tripping reed switches, then a computer programmed with timings for the relays (at 0.1 sec, power relay 1, at 0.125 sec, power relay 2). Power used is either 5 or 12 volts, supplied from the wall outlet, probably 5 amps max (guessing here). This system is good, but minute differences in the power make preprogrammed timings inaccurate
There is no rollback or power failure protection.

Professional Design

On an Intamin LSM roller coaster, there are multiple coaster trains. Each train has a channel underneath it for the stators to pass through. The channel is lined with several magnets of opposite polarities. The stators are three phase. The control system is a PLC, which gets the train's information from Pepperl Fuchs' Inductive Proximity Sensors, and drives high power switching systems using predefined equations. Power used is 650 volts, and overall launch currents reach 2000 amps.
In order to connect the stators to the power, high current contactors are used. These flip on for the launch period, and then all flip off at the same time. When the contactors are in the "off" position, each phase of the stators is connected to a high power resistor. If the train rolls back, the magnets in the moving train generate a current in the stators, which the resistors work against, thus slowing the train (that's how the train is able to roll back down the hill slowly if power cuts / a lift stop or e-stop is hit)

My Design

The first problem with K'nex is the tolerance. The train can wiggle by 1/8" in the side direction alone. Problem two is the LSM stators. There's no good way to get a vertical slot for the stators in existing K'nex train...
So why should I use a standard K'nex train? You wouldn't use Expedition Everest trains on Millennium Force!

http://i.imgur.com/nvWHdl1.png <- This is my wheel assembly. Tolerances are minute, less than 1/64". Spacers will be added if necessary, but I'd rather have a tight fit than a snug one. If you look at the picture, the track is flat. This is because the launch section will have custom track, which will be wider to hold the car in place. Aluminum and polyurethane pieces will be milled out using CNC machines at my college.

http://i.imgur.com/n8k3qD7.png <- Custom launch track vs Standard Track (I should put measurements on this, but for now, the grid is 1" square)

The trains themselves are still being designed.

http://i.imgur.com/qzCyNqQ.png <- STATORS! (eek) Along with magnet placements for the train! The red shaded area will be full of magnet wire, which will be water cooled to keep temperatures down. The center of the magnets will be iron. To design these, I had to read a lot of books with very few pictures. The struggle is real, folks.
Now I sort of have the train and stators, but what about the control system? A PLC will be the best choice here, due to the high I/O capability, as well as high speed. I know a few places I can probably get a PLC from, that part won't be too hard. The switching systems will be water cooled IGBTs.
The train's sensing will be interesting. Professional proxy switches are too big here. What I plan on doing is using photo gates, either reflective or obstructed. The photo gates will be positioned in groups of two, at a known distance apart. This will allow the PLC to calculate velocity and position of the train very accurately, and thus improve the efficiency of the stators.
To give the system anti-rollback protection, I will be using 4 pole relays, which will short circuit the stators across resistors. They will not be allowed to come into contact with the launch currents, because those will be very high.
From my research, electromagnets power is directly related to proximity and current. The new tolerances of my system will take care of proximity, but current will be handled another way...a big transformer! I plan on giving the launch upwards of 200 amps at peak load, with 480 amps being where I will draw the line. I'll keep the voltage around 5 volts, so all that I need to do is wind a large transformer, put some rectifiers on the output, and get some power storage capacitors. Hopefully. I'm still in the middle of calculating how much current each stator will get (only one phase will be live at once), then the final power supply requirements will be set.

In addition to making LSM stators work, the channel of magnets will have another benefit - I'll be able to have working brake fins on the final brake run, due to the opposing magnets creating eddy currents in the material of the fins (probably aluminum, I need to look more into that)

That's all I have so far! Keep in mind that this is very much a work in progress. AutoCAD isn't my strong suit, but doing all these drawings has really helped me there :)

-Gabe

(PS: Is this the right section to put this? I feel like it is)

Jargon:
Stator - The nonmoving electromagnet fins
PLC - Programmable Logic Controller
IGBT - Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor

Edited by ThisIsGabe, 04 February 2014 - 11:29 AM.
Misspelling



#2 The Stig

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 01:05 PM

I'm not very knowledgeable with electrical components, but it sounds like you may have the know-how to make this work.
I like your wheel assembly drawing, it looks professional.


#3 CW5X

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 02:58 PM

I feel pretty confident given your credentials that you could be a guy who gives this a decent go with reasonably successful outcomes. I hope all goes well. You seem to have a solid plan and know what you're trying to achieve.

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#4 ThisIsGabe

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 07:31 PM

I'm not very knowledgeable with electrical components, but it sounds like you may have the know-how to make this work.
I like your wheel assembly drawing, it looks professional.

Thanks! One of the requirements of my school machine shop is a full CAD drawing, so I had to make something like it anyways :)

For the track design, I'm thinking of a fairly simple launched out and back design, with a vertical first hill similar to top thrill dragster with an inversion afterwards. I have the beginnings of a schematic in progress, but the program I'm using (KiCAD) is a bit time consuming to work with. I'm shooting for launch speed of 7 meters per second, but I'm going to squeeze as much speed as I can out of this!
Trains are being designed, they will be two or three car trains, with three rows of two riders per car (because the magnet mounts on the bottom make the car almost 4 inches long).
To link the trains, I had been originally planning on machining bearings similar to those of Intamin Coasters, but I realized that knex bearings are actually very accurate and low friction. Now I need to find some ;) I'm hoping I can find some broken SS cars to cannibalize, but at worst, I'll just buy a used train from eBay and mutilate it.

(slight brag) If I can get an initial run of this together, I want to make an ultra long coaster, these trains are so heavy (probably about half a kg or more) I won't have to weight them! Of course, their weight will wreak havoc on the structure, but who pays attention to that ;)

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#5 72chevy

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 09:23 PM

You should ask around for broken cars here im sure there are plenty. If you have to canablize cars do do middle cars they are hard enough to come by now


#6 pǝʇɹǝʌuı

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 11:55 PM

I understand everything you wrote and can comprehend exactly how you are going to pull this off.

Just kidding, you lost me pretty quickly up there.

Good luck. This will be seriously awesome.

I'll sit here and enjoy my popcorn.

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#7 commando

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 11:55 PM

Good luck. You'll need it


#8 Maxlaam

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 11:25 AM

I actually have confidence in this for a change. Good luck, I took the liberty to move it to the electronics forum.


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#9 TheSUCKCrew

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 04:02 PM

Your ideas are clear, and this looks like it will be a good attempt.
The thing is though, I am not sure if you are well aware of your limitations. Making a custom wheel assembly for instance, is something that has been attempted many times but no one ever succeeded.
Tolerance isn't there without a reason, it is needed to make turns. Quite a lot of it, too.

Regarding the power, isn't it better to use a higher voltage? With such a low voltage and such a high current you'll end up with a very small resistance throughout the circuit, meaning that even the tiniest bit of resistance in the components and wires used will cause major heating and powerloss.

Make sure you do not make this overly complicated, and try to bend your ideas towards the limitations of k'nex, not the other way around:)
I like where you are going. Keep us updated, I'm interested in how this will work out.

-Bart



#10 Britfag

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 04:29 PM

Not to mention the tighter wheel assembly will increase the force between the wheels & track surface - meaning any positive aspects of this launch in terms of speed will be lost quickly.

I imagine a 3D printer will be required to fab the parts you're talking about :)


#11 ThisIsGabe

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 11:42 PM

Okay, got some work done on the system today, but first some answers :)

You should ask around for broken cars here im sure there are plenty. If you have to canablize cars do do middle cars they are hard enough to come by now -72chevy

By all means, if you know of a place that I can find a K'nex car, I'm all ears. I'm looking, but most people seem to throw away broken cars :(

I actually have confidence in this for a change. Good luck, I took the liberty to move it to the electronics forum. -Maxlaam

Thanks and double thanks :) I wasn't 100% sure where I should drop in the topic

The thing is though, I am not sure if you are well aware of your limitations. Making a custom wheel assembly for instance, is something that has been attempted many times but no one ever succeeded.
Tolerance isn't there without a reason, it is needed to make turns. Quite a lot of it, too. -TheSUCKCrew

I'm pretty well aware of what I have to achieve here, the wheel assembly has been being worked on in CAD for about two months now, pouring over what I can and cannot use. :) It's going to be very tricky to do this well, and it's just about the most critical part. I may use the wheel assembly from existing K'nex trains and cut them to fit. If you get a chance, could you show me some of the previous attempts at custom wheels? I'd love to see someone else's take on it! :D
Tolerance is as tolerance does. If I use my design, the only part where the train will be held to 1/32" separation from the track will be on the metal launch track itself (the launch track is bigger than standard track). This will let there be more clearance while it's out on the twists and turns, while keeping it steady for launching.

Regarding the power, isn't it better to use a higher voltage? With such a low voltage and such a high current you'll end up with a very small resistance throughout the circuit, meaning that even the tiniest bit of resistance in the components and wires used will cause major heating and powerloss.

Make sure you do not make this overly complicated, and try to bend your ideas towards the limitations of k'nex, not the other way around:)
I like where you are going. Keep us updated, I'm interested in how this will work out.
-Bart

From what I've researched so far, the power of an electromagnet comes from the current moving through it. The actual definition of the ampere is "the constant current that will produce an attractive force of 2 × 10–7 newton per meter of length between two straight, parallel conductors of infinite length and negligible circular cross section placed one meter apart in a vacuum". Increasing the voltage won't have much of an effect on the system, except making it more dangerous to go poking around inside while it's powered on (the resistance of my skin should keep me vaguely safe from a 5 volt charge), as well as decreasing the maximum amount of amps I can pull without tripping breakers. I will be having my design looked over by at least one professional EE before construction though. :)
Heating is something that will have to be dealt with, as it is on real coasters. To prevent the coils themselves (where most of the resistance will be) from overheating, the stators will be flooded on the inside with flowing water, which will help to keep them relatively cool. There's also a good real world example of this, with pinball coils - they use thin gauge wire, but utilize a duty cycle of 40 to 1 ms (1/1000 of a second) pulses to keep themselves from overheating. Because my stators will be switching on and off fairly rapidly, I'm confident they won't get too hot. Because the stators will be wired in parallel, rather than serial, each one should only be getting around 5 amps each.
Thanks for pointing it out though, it never hurts to double and triple check things, especially with electricity!

Not to mention the tighter wheel assembly will increase the force between the wheels & track surface - meaning any positive aspects of this launch in terms of speed will be lost quickly. -Britfag

On a real roller coaster (on an LSM Intamin at least), the train is so tight on the track laterally you can't really fit anything between the track and wheels. Also why you really don't want things landing on the track. I'd put it at a 1/16" gap, probably less. The vertical wheels are just as tight, with springs on the underside wheels to hold them tightly to the track.

I imagine a 3D printer will be required to fab the parts you're talking about -Britfag

Actually, 3d printing isn't as good as people think it is. While it may be neat and convenient to upload a 3d model and just wait, they really aren't good in terms of tolerances, what with their layer heights. Plus I can get a bar of aluminum that I can mill every part out of for less than the price of a single 3d printed part. It's so pricey to print it...and the machine shop is free! :)

Now, time for a schematic! (http://i.imgur.com/sHO5voQ.png permalink)
Posted Image

This part will be repeated 7 times. It is responsible for rollback protection, as well as individual power distribution.
The top third has 9 coils. These 9 coils represent the three coils in three stators.
On the right, you can see three red tags, with PHASE1 through PHASE3 on them. These will be the actual power inputs from the master switching mechanism. Once the power goes through them, they go to circuit ground.
In the middle is the 4PDT relay. This means it has 4 separate switches inside it, and both the open and closed positions are outputs. On a professional system, this is done with contactors, which are more expensive because they can handle more current.
When not in use, the relay is in the "open position". This causes the three stator phases to be shorted together across three resistors (bottom third). Through the magic of magnets, those resistors will actually exert an opposing force on a moving train. The fourth switch of the relay goes to the PLC through the STATORS_HALT (stators are in braking mode) and STATORS_READY (stators ready for launch). This allows it to monitor the position of every relay in the system, sounding an alarm if a relay is in the wrong position at the wrong time.
To prepare for launch, the PLC sends power to STATORLIVE, disconnecting the resistors so all of the power is sent through the stators. Once the launch finishes, the PLC cuts power to STATORLIVE, thus reconnecting the resistors in case of a rollback. If the power is lost, the relay will automatically connect the resistors, making it able to safely stop. :)

Up next, configuring the PLC, designing more electronics, more train CAD drawing and submitting my setups to various ME and EE professors for inspection.
As always, let me know if you notice something that you think looks off!

-Gabe

Edited by ThisIsGabe, 09 February 2014 - 11:45 PM.
Added names to quotes


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2014 - Cedar Downs and Cadillac Cars Supervisor

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#12 TheSUCKCrew

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 09:16 AM

You are using a coil though, and when you are using coils you will end up with a formula that has the amount of windings in it, somewhere. When the voltage gets higher, you will need a higher resistance aswell to get the amps down (after all, you want to maintain the same output power), and since you are probably using the resistance of the coil-wire, you will need more windings, which results in a higher force of the electric magnet.

Voltages below 20 volts are considered "reasonably" safe. Using a higher voltage is very important for many reasons. Those IGBT's for instance, have a voltage drop of 3.6Volts. They will be smoking hot within seconds. Using relays for inductive loads is not recommended. Any resistance in the wires and components used will be an issue, when you're using such a low voltage with such a high current. A higher voltage with the same power, will naturally result in a lower current.

I do not want to be a smartass by the way, I'm not at all an expert. This is just an interesting project, so I'm researching every step you take, and combining it with the knowledge I have, hoping it will help you!

Edited by TheSUCKCrew, 10 February 2014 - 09:18 AM.




#13 ThisIsGabe

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 01:04 PM

You are using a coil though, and when you are using coils you will end up with a formula that has the amount of windings in it, somewhere. When the voltage gets higher, you will need a higher resistance aswell to get the amps down (after all, you want to maintain the same output power), and since you are probably using the resistance of the coil-wire, you will need more windings, which results in a higher force of the electric magnet.

Voltages below 20 volts are considered "reasonably" safe. Using a higher voltage is very important for many reasons. Those IGBT's for instance, have a voltage drop of 3.6Volts. They will be smoking hot within seconds. Using relays for inductive loads is not recommended. Any resistance in the wires and components used will be an issue, when you're using such a low voltage with such a high current. A higher voltage with the same power, will naturally result in a lower current.

I do not want to be a smartass by the way, I'm not at all an expert. This is just an interesting project, so I'm researching every step you take, and combining it with the knowledge I have, hoping it will help you!

Don't worry about it, I'd much rather have someone point out something that I've missed than have to pick burned silicon out of my K'nex! :) Sorry if I sound like a smartalec as well, it's not my intent!

Looking at your research, you're right, and I did miss out on the voltage drop for the IGBTs. To get the voltages up, I think something around 48-50 volts would be ideal, as it is also the standard driving voltage of pinball machine coils. Could you show me your coil formula that you found when you get a chance? I haven't been able to find one that involves winding counts so far.

For the relays, the way to safeguard them will be using a TVS Diode. It will short circuit the two terminals directly together to keep the output voltage at a predefined rating. I'll probably limit that voltage to around 100 volts, because the relays themselves are 120 volt rated. Relay and inductive loads

Anyways, thank you for pointing out what I had missed, and by all means please continue to do so! :D

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#14 Britfag

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 02:17 PM

On a real roller coaster (on an LSM Intamin at least), the train is so tight on the track laterally you can't really fit anything between the track and wheels. Also why you really don't want things landing on the track. I'd put it at a 1/16" gap, probably less. The vertical wheels are just as tight, with springs on the underside wheels to hold them tightly to the track.



The difference between real and scale is just incomparable.

1/16" of a gap on a 8" diameter wheel is a 0.78125% gap.

a 1mm gap on a 5mm diameter wheel is a 20% gap.


#15 Maxlaam

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 05:22 AM

Anything below 48Volt is safe to work with because of your skin resistance, the A's don't really matter to a person until you work with a higher V.

A custom wheel assembly is going to be a bitch to work with, awesome if you can get it to work, but start with a single coach. It might be a good idea to get tiny ballbearings for wheels.


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#16 ThisIsGabe

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 10:02 PM

Anything below 48Volt is safe to work with because of your skin resistance, the A's don't really matter to a person until you work with a higher V.

A custom wheel assembly is going to be a bitch to work with, awesome if you can get it to work, but start with a single coach. It might be a good idea to get tiny ballbearings for wheels.

I had actually been looking for small ball bearings, but I hadn't been able to find any that were both small and cheap...until today!
Tamiya TL 01 TL 01LA TL 01b SVT Lightning Rubber SEALED Ball Bearing Set | eBay bought these, enough for two single coaches. I'll fit and glue polyurethane rings to the outside for wheels. Because they're designed for RC cars, I figure they can handle the high speeds of the train.

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I'm building a thing! http://www.sscoaster...m-launch-16194/


#17 Maxlaam

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:07 AM

I wouldn't bother adding a running surface to them, big chance to mess it up. They are already perfectly round like this.


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#18 Witting

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 08:22 AM

Are you going to write the cnc program yourselfs? Probaply not cause you are doing electronics.
If you do I would like to see the program for your parts since I'm learning cnc at school now. In what material will these be made aluminium? you could make them wooden decreasing the chanche of a short-circuit when the trains hits a stator for whatever reason.

Edited by Witting, 16 February 2014 - 08:27 AM.



#19 ThisIsGabe

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:50 PM

I wouldn't bother adding a running surface to them, big chance to mess it up. They are already perfectly round like this.

I'll have to play it by sight once the bearings get here (they're still in transit from China), I may use a thin running surface to make them wider.

Are you going to write the cnc program yourselfs? Probaply not cause you are doing electronics.
If you do I would like to see the program for your parts since I'm learning cnc at school now. In what material will these be made aluminium? you could make them wooden decreasing the chanche of a short-circuit when the trains hits a stator for whatever reason.


I'm confused by what you're referring to for the cnc program.
For the design of the parts, I've made them in AutoCAD mechanical.
The PLC control will be done through the PLC manufacturer's system.

I also just got trained on my school's 3D printer lab, and prints of any size are free, so I'm probably going to shift away from aluminum for some of the parts (the magnet holders will be metal to prevent them from bending).
This will mean that now I need to move to another CAD program, one that allows me to output 3d files. I'm thinking of Solidworks or Pro-E.

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#20 Witting

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 03:49 PM

You said the custom train was going to be cnc milled.
will you make the cnc program to mill it yourself or is a guy from the machine workshop at your school going to take care of that and you just provide the cad drawing?
sorry for the confusion I'm just really interested in this as I would like to make an lsm myself sometime in the future for my "gip" which is a integrated school test for my last grade of secondary school.

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